Charlie ([info]ccfinlay) wrote,
@ 2006-06-14 21:36:00
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More on The Bomb

Someone contacted me privately to say that the submissions bomb idea is, and I quote, "the most patronizing thing you could have ever done to 'women' and I'm still in shock at how you don't see that." And Ben Peek feels strongly that "there's some irony in watching a white male who has been published in Fantasy and Science Fiction fairly regularly motivate the poor, downtrodden, and unwanted feeling women to submit". He agrees with [info]nihilistic_kid that women should abandon F&SF because it's only a men's magazine and submit elsewhere.

Like, because, I'm a man, I automatically have to play on the boys' team? I'm not allowed to see a problem and call for people to address it? I'm not writing the stories, I'm not submitting them, I'm not taking any of the risks or doing any of the work, I'm not even offering any advice on how to do it. The people who are writing and subbing are the football team: I'm just standing on the sideline like a cheerleader. So I don't buy it.

And I disagree that F&SF is exclusively a men's magazine. In fact, I find the idea of segregated men's and women's fiction magazines deeply troubling. The day I can't open F&SF or Strange Horizons or Asimov's and read good stories, regardless of author gender, is the day I lose interest in spec fic.




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[info]dsgood
2006-06-15 02:29 am UTC (link)
Riightttt. F&SF has a long tradition of publishing hairy-chested he-man stories from Real Men like Mildred Clingerman, Judith Merril, and Margaret St. Clair.

And obviously, a TV show in -- oh, let's say the 1960's -- set on a military spaceship would have had absolutely no appeal to teenage girls.

(Reply to this)


[info]silk_noir
2006-06-15 02:30 am UTC (link)
Screw 'em. If I get done with my story in time, I'll send it in.

Don't whine about change, y'all; be the change.

(Reply to this)


[info]affinity8
2006-06-15 02:33 am UTC (link)
Actually, it's somewhat patronizing to think women feel poor or downtrodden while we're off selling our F & SF rejects (or more likely never-submitteds) to Asimovs, Realms, Strange Horizons, Interzone, Polyphony, and many other fine markets. I may want to crack F & SF but I'm not losing sleep over it.

I like a good idea when I hear it, regardless if it comes from a man or woman! So yay for Charlie :-)




(Reply to this)


[info]nihilistic_kid
2006-06-15 02:35 am UTC (link)
He agrees with nihilistic_kid that women should abandon F&SF because it's only a men's magazine and submit elsewhere.


That's an outrageous mischaracterization of my position. About as outrageous as say, boiling down your plan to encourage submissions by summarizing it as "And Charlie thinks that, with a magic man's help, the li'l girls can finally get those little stories of theirs into envelopes and off to the kindly editors, who might even read them!"

Correct it.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]matociquala
2006-06-15 03:37 am UTC (link)
Maybe you should state your position more clearly? Because if I had to boil it down to one sentence, I wouldn't be far from what Charlie said.

Now, it's possible I'm a crappy reader.

Or it's possible you were a tad unclear.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(Deleted post)
(no subject) - [info]matociquala, 2006-06-15 03:52 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]nihilistic_kid, 2006-06-15 03:58 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]matociquala, 2006-06-15 04:02 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]nihilistic_kid, 2006-06-15 03:44 am UTC

[info]cocoskeeper
2006-06-15 02:35 am UTC (link)
Amen to that!

(Reply to this)


[info]cathemery
2006-06-15 02:36 am UTC (link)
You could ever have done to 'women'? Does anyone else see anything odd in putting that word in quotation marks? Like, does that person think these people are not really women?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]cpolk
2006-06-15 02:59 am UTC (link)
an interesting obcservation you've got, there.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]cristalia, 2006-06-15 03:04 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lzernechel, 2006-06-15 03:11 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]cpolk, 2006-06-15 03:15 am UTC

[info]battle_of_one
2006-06-15 02:37 am UTC (link)
I'm backtracking to read your posts.

Let me just say that I planned on submitting the short I'm working on now to F&SF anyway. I enjoy the stories I've read there. Good stories are good stories and personally I tend not to care what the gender, sexual orientation, color of the skin or anything like that IS. Of course this isn't a perfect world and bias exists, but one wonders how much issues are made issues because people won't let it alone, or worse yet, won't try to change things they perceive to be injustices.

women should abandon F&SF because it's only a men's magazine and submit elsewhere.

And if people feel somewhere is biased toward one gender, then they should submit and help break down the perceived wall. Change doesn't happen if you walk away from an issue. "Oh wow, the music I listen to seems to draw only hippies and I'm a jock. I guess I can't listen to it anymore, I'm better off somewhere else."

This makes no sense to me in any spectrum. If you're not trying to make a solution to something that you think is a problem, then it would behoove you to stop bitching about it.

Bring on the brimstone, I'm not afraid of a debate.

(Reply to this)


[info]squirrel_monkey
2006-06-15 02:37 am UTC (link)
A good idea is a good idea, regardless of who came up with it.

But I do not think NK called it an 'exclusively' men's magazine, just that it's targeted toward men.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]cristalia
2006-06-15 02:40 am UTC (link)
I think the attitude we're calling for is:

If F&SF is targeted towards men, they can read my fiction too! They can read everybody's fiction, and I will submit it until they do!

All shall love me and despair!


...ahem. *cough* :D

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]squirrel_monkey, 2006-06-15 02:41 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]cpolk, 2006-06-15 03:16 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]cristalia, 2006-06-15 03:21 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]squirrel_monkey, 2006-06-15 02:41 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]nihilistic_kid, 2006-06-15 02:42 am UTC

[info]reudaly
2006-06-15 02:43 am UTC (link)
My question is this, and yes, I should probably pose it to [info]nihilistic_kid and Ben Peek...

For the woman who wants to be taken seriously as a SFWA recognized PROFESSIONAL author - WHAT OTHER MARKETS SHOULD WOMEN SUBMIT TO if they're just supposed to find some other market instead of banging on the doors of the Big Three?

Hmm? Where else do we go if those are "Men's Magazines" and women have no hope? What other venues does ANYONE have?

And please don't go pointing me to Ralan. We're all battering the same door, why not all on one day?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]mallory_blog
2006-06-15 02:50 am UTC (link)
Exactly!

3 of the top 3 at least seem to have some aspect of this problem? HELLO!!!

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]reudaly, 2006-06-15 02:54 am UTC
no fries with that...:) - [info]mallory_blog, 2006-06-15 03:00 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]nihilistic_kid, 2006-06-15 02:58 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]reudaly, 2006-06-15 03:13 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]nihilistic_kid, 2006-06-15 03:19 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]reudaly, 2006-06-15 03:28 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]nihilistic_kid, 2006-06-15 03:32 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]affinity8, 2006-06-15 03:03 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]buymeaclue, 2006-06-15 03:05 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]buymeaclue, 2006-06-15 03:08 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]reudaly, 2006-06-15 03:17 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]nihilistic_kid, 2006-06-15 03:36 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]reudaly, 2006-06-15 03:47 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]affinity8, 2006-06-15 03:37 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]buymeaclue, 2006-06-15 03:04 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]reudaly, 2006-06-15 03:09 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]buymeaclue, 2006-06-15 03:14 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]nihilistic_kid, 2006-06-15 03:14 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]reudaly, 2006-06-15 03:36 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]affinity8, 2006-06-15 03:47 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]nihilistic_kid, 2006-06-15 03:48 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]the_flea_king, 2006-06-15 03:08 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]cpolk, 2006-06-15 03:13 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]the_flea_king, 2006-06-15 03:20 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]benpeek, 2006-06-15 07:59 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]papersky, 2006-06-15 11:30 am UTC

[info]pabba
2006-06-15 02:43 am UTC (link)
Go wimmens!!!

(Reply to this)

REFRAME!
[info]mallory_blog
2006-06-15 02:49 am UTC (link)
Why not reframe this and say, what can F&SF do to ATTRACT women writers into submitting to them?

How can F&SF REPAIR the perception that there is a bias operating as a glass transom against women at their magazine?

Why direct this 'corrective measure' AT women submissions and NOT at the magazine responsible for BUYING their work? How is the source of the problem identified to come from submissions rather than magazine? Are the low numbers of submissions a RESULT rather than a SOURCE?

What is the POSITION OF POWER in this scenario? Do the women have the power to increase purchases? NO! Purchases are not made BY the women submitting.

How does F&SF see this issue? If at all? Do they even give a damn that this is the perception held by whatever numbers of women are NOT submitting work to them at this time?

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: REFRAME!
[info]the_flea_king
2006-06-15 03:09 am UTC (link)
I know for a fact at least that JJA is watching this issue with interest, and he certainly has Gordon's ear. I don't know what the "official" F&SF stance is on things, but I'm sure they are listening, and they do care.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: REFRAME! - [info]mallory_blog, 2006-06-15 03:45 am UTC
Re: REFRAME! - [info]the_flea_king, 2006-06-15 03:46 am UTC
Re: REFRAME! - [info]mallory_blog, 2006-06-15 03:50 am UTC
Re: REFRAME! - [info]cristalia, 2006-06-15 03:58 am UTC
Re: REFRAME! - [info]mallory_blog, 2006-06-15 04:15 am UTC
Re: REFRAME! - [info]buymeaclue, 2006-06-15 04:05 am UTC
Re: REFRAME! - [info]aimeempayne, 2006-06-15 01:51 pm UTC
Re: REFRAME! - [info]ccfinlay, 2006-06-15 01:55 pm UTC

[info]deadcities_icon
2006-06-15 02:52 am UTC (link)
OK, Charlie, I laud the effort you've made in this. And I can completely see where you're coming from.

But.

But, I have a real problem with the claims that F&SF doesn't publish "enough" women. What is "enough"? I mean, how many black men have been published throughout the history of F&SF? Should we send out a call for more Islamic writers to submit to F&SF?

Stories get published because an editor thinks a) it's a good story, b) it fits what is needed at the time, c) it fits what the audience will respond to, and d) the editor feels the need to publish it.

F&SF doesn't publish "enough" fiction from women? Fine. Submit elsewhere. Make a new market. Don't read F&SF if it isn't your cuppa. (Me? I gave up reading the digests some time ago, since I rarely found anything interesting that wasn't later collected elsewhere.)

But making a call to bombard the slush pile won't accomplish anything. The number of subs is irrelevant. It will still come down to JJA's taste, Gordon's taste, and whether the story fits. In fact, I think I've come up with an axiom:

Slush will always be slush no matter how much of it there is.

:)

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]deadcities_icon
2006-06-15 02:56 am UTC (link)
Further:

And I disagree that F&SF is exclusively a men's magazine. In fact, I find the idea of segregated men's and women's fiction magazines deeply troubling. The day I can't open F&SF or Strange Horizons or Asimov's and read good stories, regardless of author gender, is the day I lose interest in spec fic.

Exclusively? Has anyone claimed that? How ridiculous!

And really, you say you want to read "good stories, regardless of author gender"... so why does it matter how many women versus men are published in F&SF?

Are you offended that there aren't enough articles by men in REDBOOK or COSMO or KNITTING WEEKLY or PARENTING? Should we bombard all of those magazines because they don't print any speculative fiction AT ALL?

I know I'm stretching the bounds of this discussion, but absurdity presents a new viewpoing.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

but there are enough articles by men in knitting weekly. - [info]cpolk, 2006-06-15 03:09 am UTC
Re: but there are enough articles by men in knitting weekly. - [info]the_flea_king, 2006-06-15 03:19 am UTC
Re: but there are enough articles by men in knitting weekly. - [info]nihilistic_kid, 2006-06-15 04:06 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]cassiphone, 2006-06-15 11:20 pm UTC

[info]ex_filmmaker362
2006-06-15 02:59 am UTC (link)
Someone contacted me privately to say that the submissions bomb idea is, and I quote, "the most patronizing thing you could have ever done to 'women' and I'm still in shock at how you don't see that." And Ben Peek feels strongly that "there's some irony in watching a white male who has been published in Fantasy and Science Fiction fairly regularly motivate the poor, downtrodden, and unwanted feeling women to submit". He agrees with nihilistic_kid that women should abandon F&SF because it's only a men's magazine and submit elsewhere.

That's one of the stupidest comments I've ever read.

Last I heard F&SF magazine was a story market, not a men's club. For once in my life I wish I were a women so I could go on a bombing mission








(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]cpolk
2006-06-15 03:10 am UTC (link)
use a girly name and bomb with us!

hey, it worked for Jim tiptree, didn't it?

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]lzernechel
2006-06-15 03:08 am UTC (link)
I greatly dislike / disagree with the statement that "women should abandon F&SF because it's only a men's magazine and submit elsewhere." It's offensive.
However, I'd like to bring up that Reznick published two books of interest. One: Women publishing as Men in Science Fiction. The other: Men publishing as Women in Science Fiction.
Isn't that interesting? I think it is. We have them at the Clarion office. I'm going to borrow them over the weekend and read them. See what he has to say.
Maybe we should all publish under gender UNspecific pseudonyms from now on, or even better, numbers! I'll take the roman numeral XXVIII. What's yours?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]buymeaclue
2006-06-15 03:10 am UTC (link)
You are...number six!

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]hominysnark, 2006-06-15 03:10 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]buymeaclue, 2006-06-15 03:11 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]cpolk, 2006-06-15 03:11 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lzernechel, 2006-06-15 03:15 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]cpolk, 2006-06-15 03:18 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]cassiphone, 2006-06-15 11:30 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lzernechel, 2006-06-16 12:28 am UTC

[info]hominysnark
2006-06-15 03:09 am UTC (link)
the most patronizing thing you could have ever done to 'women'

Oh, for the love of sweet barking Christ.

I was going to add more, but I think that sums it up nicely.

Loff,

One of the so-called "women" of your acquaintance.

(Reply to this)


[info]the_flea_king
2006-06-15 03:14 am UTC (link)
If Nick was saying anything like that, he was saying "women (and everyone else) should abandon F&SF because there are magazines out there that pay better, with larger audiences." At least to my reading.

I think the gender issue is somewhat interesting, but personally, I'd rather read stories by people who are not Americans. Where is my African, Chinese, Indian genre short fiction? Where are those writers in the pages of pro magazines? When the FB was still alive, we regularly got pretty good submissions from several Indian authors.

Maybe the pro magazines should consider an more open e-submission policy for authors from "third world" countries? Boy, I bet an African writer from, say, Kenya, could actually live quite well from short story sales.

Sorry for the tangent, but I would just like to see more diversity in published authors in general.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]cpolk
2006-06-15 03:20 am UTC (link)
I've been tempted to get popular *enough* to sell a story or bank in a meh! advance and then move to Kerala, India.

does that count?

I mean, think of it! I could get up and do yoga, eat papadums, and the weather's always either 1) nice or 2) life threatening disaster!

and the tea would probably kick ass.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]the_flea_king, 2006-06-15 03:23 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]rosefox, 2006-06-15 03:44 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]the_flea_king, 2006-06-15 03:46 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]rosefox, 2006-06-15 03:59 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]the_flea_king, 2006-06-15 04:22 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]rosefox, 2006-06-15 04:26 am UTC

[info]karenmiller
2006-06-15 03:29 am UTC (link)
Gosh. Well, Charlie, fwiw ...

I really appreciate you commenting on the issue, and raising questions and awareness. Your gender and publishing history are irrelevant, as a concerned member of the spec fic community you have every right to say something and suggest courses of action.

As a woman writing in the field I can say categorically I don't feel patronised or condescended to. I'm thrilled you're articulate and passionate and willing to speak up when you see a perceived injustice. Go you.

Saying you can't comment on this is like saying only African-Americans can complain about discrimination against blacks in American society. Bullshit. And bullshit to any idiot who tries to make that case.

(Reply to this)


[info]charmingbillie
2006-06-15 03:47 am UTC (link)
Jeez, Charlie, don't you know that if you are not going to do it correctly, then you just shouldn't have ideas at all.

(Reply to this)


[info]raecarson
2006-06-15 04:05 am UTC (link)
No good deed goes unpunished, eh? Take THAT, you silly macarist.

I think it's a great idea. I certainly don't see the harm in trying something.

(Reply to this)


[info]haddayr
2006-06-15 04:09 am UTC (link)
He agrees with [info]nihilistic_kid that women should abandon F&SF because it's only a men's magazine and submit elsewhere.

Um. Nick didn't say that at all. I'll admit I haven't commited his post to memory, but I thought he said why stick with genre stuff at all think big my sistahs or something like that.

(Reply to this)


[info]merebrillante
2006-06-15 05:16 am UTC (link)
Like, because, I'm a man, I automatically have to play on the boys' team?

Not only that, you can't ever write a female POV character because that would be patronizing and culturally (sexually?) imperialistic. And to refuse to write a female POV character will reveal your inherent misogyny.

Accept your damnation and move to the end of the line, please.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]rachel_swirsky
2006-06-15 06:35 am UTC (link)
Not only that, you can't ever write a female POV character because that would be patronizing and culturally (sexually?) imperialistic.

My sarcasm detector may be broken today, but the only person I've ever heard seriously argue this was a Japanese/African American lesbian novelist with an MFA from Cornell. And more or less what she said was, "I used to believe no one should ever write out of their own race and gender. Now I'm not quite as sure."

Though I have heard plenty of people complain about men writing *bad* women characters...

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]merebrillante, 2006-06-15 03:40 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]rachel_swirsky, 2006-06-15 10:09 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]merebrillante, 2006-06-16 01:41 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]pjthompson, 2006-06-15 06:55 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]merebrillante, 2006-06-15 06:56 pm UTC

[info]rachel_swirsky
2006-06-15 06:28 am UTC (link)
And I disagree that F&SF is exclusively a men's magazine. In fact, I find the idea of segregated men's and women's fiction magazines deeply troubling.

So do I.

I think there's a problem in a patriarchal society, though, where "enjoyment for both genders" will create an automatic skew toward "masculine." In the mindset of a patriarchal culture, a woman (or women readers/writers in the case of the SF field) is reaching above herself to pursue masculine things. A man is lowering himself to pursue feminine things. The feminine remains stigmatized.

Femininsm has been a success to the extent that women are now permitted to access most/many kinds of masculine power, though not necessarily in great numbers (women can be tomboys if they don't cross lines; they even can be senators or CEOs, occasionally). However, it has failed to destigmatize the feminine (stay at home dads are a fantastic phenomenon, but childcare remains devalued and primarily women's work).

I don't have quotes handy (though I could probably dredge them up), but an old-fashioned SF author (I believe it was Thomas Disch) wrote something that I felt nicely illuminated this dichotomy. He lauded Joanna Russ for writing about masculine women - because anyone should have the fun of vicariously kicking ass - but lambasted LeGuin and MacIntyre, etc. for softening the genre by essentially writing about more feminine concepts.

Also, men are still culturally viewed as the "default" while women are the "other." A magazine wanting to appeal to both genders will probably attempt to appeal to what is seen as a default point of view rather than to what is seen (on a conscious or subconscious level) as being a special or othered perspective. In the case we're talking about, that means that the magazine will probably emphasize men and masculinity (default) over women and femininity (other).

Women and men are both trained to view men as subjects and women as objects. These things are reflected in the ways that we write and read, as a culture. I'm sure you've heard all this before.

Anyway, I don't disagree with your point. I am also wary of separating magazine readership along gender lines. I'm a long time reader of and subscriber to F&SF. I don't think they're a men's magazine. I don't intend to stop reading or let my subscription lapse any time soon. I just think that there are certain difficulties inherent in the assumption that privelege and bias won't/don't exist in magazines that publish "good stories, regardless of author gender."

I apologize if I'm misreading your point, of course.

(Reply to this)


[info]lenora_rose
2006-06-15 07:24 am UTC (link)
AS someone who has a shelf of F&SFs, is unmistakeably female, who never found the magazine felt like it sold stories targeted to men, who submits there when she has short stories, and finds that GVG, when spoken to or seen in person, doesn't give the slightest hint of bias against women;

Charlie, you're doing a sensible thing; pointing out a possible problem, encouraging those who can make a difference to do so in a way that hurts no-one. it's good idea; it's simple, it's got the potential to actually proiduce the desired result, and it shouldn't make anyone feel bad, or patronized, or patronizing. I suspect GVG and JJA both are paying attention because they want to either prove this wrong, or amend it.

(On an entirely side note: NK does have a point that there are other markets that have been ignored, but, frankly, I'm not sure how it fits into this one day or one story. Maybe if the story is rejected, it's time to follow his advice on other markets.)

(Reply to this)


[info]benpeek
2006-06-15 07:51 am UTC (link)
He agrees with nihilistic_kid that women should abandon F&SF because it's only a men's magazine and submit elsewhere.

actually, that's not what i was agreeing on. what i was agreeing on was that F&SF is always going to appeal to a male centric audience, and that, as that, if female authors want to make a huge statement to the genre writing, they should go out and take over a bigger magazine with a wider readership. but be in it, he also didn't say it was a bad plan, and not worth doing, which i also agree with.

but while you are getting a lot of support here, your position of power is all wrong. would you, for example, lead a black rights parade? would you be the figurehead for a black equality movement? of course not. you're white. if you become the figurehead there, as here, any good that you do is done under the awareness that it was thought of and lead by a white guy. thus you maintain your position of power socially.

i mean, this is all it's about, right? no one actually thinks women write better or worse based on gender. it's simply about breaking down a social power structure that leaves certain genre magazines with the air that they are boys only clubs. a lot of science fiction can be seen that way, really. so if you're attacking this social concern, and you are, in case you haven't figured, the figurehead for it, then are you really, as a male, breaking down the socially constructed idea that sf is a male dominated genre?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]aimeempayne
2006-06-15 02:00 pm UTC (link)
I see what you are saying. It is ironic that a male is leading this charge. I don't think that's really a criticism of Charlie, though, just an observation.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]benpeek, 2006-06-15 02:06 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]aimeempayne, 2006-06-15 04:18 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cassiphone, 2006-06-15 11:38 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]benpeek, 2006-06-16 12:25 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]cassiphone, 2006-06-16 01:25 am UTC

[info]sksperry
2006-06-15 12:17 pm UTC (link)
And we wonder why our Gov'ts can't get anything done. Sheesh!

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]secritcrush
2006-06-15 06:24 pm UTC (link)
If only they were run by women we'd have so much more time for arguing about this ...

(Reply to this) (Parent)


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