C. C. Finlay ([info]ccfinlay) wrote,
@ 2005-08-10 09:12:00
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I'm Not Discouraged
[info]douglain posted this discouraging note about genre writing:

"Nobody is even trying to make a living anymore. It's an amateur field now about being cool and published. People spend the little money they do earn on going to conventions where they can pretend to be professional writers."

...and asked for responses. There's been a great discussion in the comments section. I posted a version of these comments there, but then decided to keep a copy here too.

I think that very few genre writers have ever made a living at it during most of their careers. I forget who I was listening to in Toronto a couple years ago, might have been Robert Silverberg, but he was saying there are definitely more writers making a living off SF now compared to 1970, for example. It used to be hard, was the general impression. And I've seen similar statements in requal-related debates around SFWA, saying that there are about 50 genre writers making most of their living off fiction now, if you include work-for-hire, and that's twice as many as there were thirty years ago.

Most of us could list a fairly high percentage of those fifty writers if we thought about it. Almost none of them hang out on live journal, and few of them hang out online anywhere as far as I can tell. That may be worth a different discussion.

Of course, there are also many more writers trying to break in now, I think. In the past forty years, we've gone from no structured programs for genre writers to Clarion, Clarion West, Clarion South, Odyssey, Viable Paradise, Uncle Orson's Boot Camp, as well as the distance MFA programs like Seton Hill, and the rise of internet workshops ranging from the formal Long Ridge Writers and James Gunn workshops to the crit group models of Critters and OWW. That's not even a complete list. Many of these have arisen in the past ten years, or five. I've almost felt at times that the programs were growing faster than markets for fiction.

I have a very strong feeling that there are at least some writers coming out of these programs with a sense of entitlement: "Okay, everybody has been telling me I'm good. Where are my sales?" I have seen resentment of the successful writers in some of these places by those who aren't successful.

So I don't know who made the comment in Doug's post or the context in which it was made. But it sounds like sour grapes to me. It's too easy to go all golden-age on the past. In raw numbers, I'm sure that more writers make a living today than ever before. Look at the list of genre books being published each year in Locus. Isn't it up over 2000 now? Thirty, forty years ago, it was only a few hundred. Many of those writers eke out a living at best, and more supplement it with work-for-hire or other work. I bet that's always been true too. You ever read the biographies of John Jakes (who started out as a genre writer) or Fredric Brown or Clifford Simak or Cordwainer Smith or Philip K. Dick or (insert other writer here)?

The number of those writing-for-a-living writers may be a smaller percentage of the total writers, and I think most of them are outside the online communities of aspiring writers. And I assert there's also a growing number of people who feel entitlted to success, and they make comments like the one in Doug's post. The writers like Elizabeth Bear who are making a majority of their income from fiction are busting ass to do it. There are plenty of examples of them, if you take the time to look.



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[info]nihilistic_kid
2005-08-10 01:34 pm UTC (link)
The list of people "making a living as a writer" is sort of misleading, anyway, since by living people generally mean "the comfortable middle-class living that people of a certain class insist is their birthright." There are many people who do supplement their writing income with teaching, or writing non-fiction, or working with a small publishing concern, or breeding Neopolitan Mastiffs or whatever...but those supplements aren't the line between homelessness and security, but between being a member of the working poor and being middle class.

Plenty of people make enough money from writing SF/F/H to match the income of people to work full-time at Wal-Mart or at a non-unionized light manufacturing job, but choose to take in other work so they won't have to depend on emergency rooms and Dollar Store spaghetti sauce to make ends meet. But nobody would say that those hundreds of thousands of people working for Wal-Mart or the chicken gutting plant aren't "making a living."

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[info]ccfinlay
2005-08-10 01:39 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, that's an excellent point. "A living" is a variable with a large range defined by class expectations.

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(no subject) - [info]madwriter, 2005-08-10 02:50 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]gfjames, 2005-08-10 03:00 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]madwriter, 2005-08-10 03:07 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]gfjames, 2005-08-10 04:23 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kristine_smith, 2005-08-10 04:39 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ccfinlay, 2005-08-10 04:45 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kristine_smith, 2005-08-10 05:03 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]daveamongus, 2005-08-11 02:54 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]eeknight, 2005-08-11 01:49 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]eeknight, 2005-08-11 02:05 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]nihilistic_kid, 2005-08-10 04:56 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2005-08-10 05:11 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]norilana, 2005-08-12 03:37 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sallytuppence, 2005-08-12 01:16 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]norilana, 2005-08-12 02:27 pm UTC

[info]jimhines
2005-08-10 01:40 pm UTC (link)
Dang. You beat me to the point I was going to make, and topped it off with a chicken gutting reference. I'll just go back to lurking now...

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[info]kristine_smith
2005-08-10 02:25 pm UTC (link)
But nobody would say that those hundreds of thousands of people working for Wal-Mart or the chicken gutting plant aren't "making a living."

I might, because my definition of 'making a living' includes some sense of security, an ability to plan for the future. Intangibles, including the sense that you're getting somewhere. A lessening of the undercurrent of fear.

I'm not saying this as a member of the middle class who believes they have a birthright, but as a child of the working class who has seen what a lack of of these things, along with overwork, did to a parent.

Others will, of course, have their own opinion.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]nihilistic_kid, 2005-08-10 02:31 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kristine_smith, 2005-08-10 04:42 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kristine_smith, 2005-08-10 04:45 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]nihilistic_kid, 2005-08-10 04:53 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]barbarienne, 2005-08-10 05:53 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]nihilistic_kid, 2005-08-10 05:58 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]barbarienne, 2005-08-10 06:45 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]nihilistic_kid, 2005-08-10 09:11 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]barbarienne, 2005-08-10 09:30 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]nihilistic_kid, 2005-08-10 09:49 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ccfinlay, 2005-08-10 02:39 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kristine_smith, 2005-08-10 04:43 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ccfinlay, 2005-08-10 04:59 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kristine_smith, 2005-08-10 05:07 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2005-08-10 05:14 pm UTC

[info]rachelmanija
2005-08-10 11:22 pm UTC (link)
I make more money writing than I do at my day job, but my day job has health insurance.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]bibliofile, 2005-08-11 07:10 pm UTC

[info]douglain
2005-08-12 10:30 pm UTC (link)
This might seem like a non-sequitor, but I'll shoot it out anyway.

It sure would be easier to make a living as a writer in the US if we had socialized medicine.

When my kid got sick last winter I realized I wouldn't be able to quit my job and write full time even if I could make the same money from writing as I do from my current job...or even if I made more.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]buymeaclue
2005-08-10 01:40 pm UTC (link)
My other thing on this topic (on this topic in general, not your post or Doug's in particular) is, why _should_ a writer make a living from just writing?

If that's what someone wants, then the more power (and best of luck) to them. I don't mean to imply that it's not a worthy thing to do or a fine goal to shoot for. Want what you want. Do what you think will get it for you.

But I kind of feel like, whenever this discussion boils up, it's implicit (and sometimes explicit) that a writer, if he's serious, wants to do nothing but write. That he certainly doesn't want to have a _day job._

And I just don't think that's necessarily true, or that it necessarily should be.

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[info]sallytuppence
2005-08-10 01:55 pm UTC (link)
Reminds me of a WisCon-in-Jed's-room discussion. We (group of about 10 people, serious, somewhat new writers) were talking about writing (!) and somebody said, "Well, of course we'd all like to quit our day jobs and write full time," and I was like, "Um, no we wouldn't."

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(no subject) - [info]nihilistic_kid, 2005-08-10 02:01 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ccfinlay, 2005-08-10 02:09 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]madwriter, 2005-08-10 02:59 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ccfinlay, 2005-08-10 05:04 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2005-08-10 05:25 pm UTC
Doh, I just did it again. - (Anonymous), 2005-08-10 05:27 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]madwriter, 2005-08-10 03:00 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jhetley, 2005-08-10 03:30 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ccfinlay, 2005-08-10 05:06 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]palinade, 2005-08-10 03:38 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jimhines, 2005-08-10 02:06 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]nihilistic_kid, 2005-08-10 02:20 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]buymeaclue, 2005-08-10 04:26 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sallytuppence, 2005-08-10 06:44 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kristine_smith, 2005-08-10 02:02 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]buymeaclue, 2005-08-10 04:28 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ccfinlay, 2005-08-10 02:04 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]buymeaclue, 2005-08-10 04:29 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]burger_eater, 2005-08-11 04:17 pm UTC

[info]sksperry
2005-08-10 02:27 pm UTC (link)
Some people deserve to be published, but never will. That's life. No one's entitled to be published, unless thier dad owns the publishing company and he promised.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]madwriter
2005-08-10 03:02 pm UTC (link)
Or their husband. (Thinking of Virginia Wolff--but on the other hand, I'm glad Leonard got her stuff out to the public, I am.)

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]ccfinlay, 2005-08-10 05:08 pm UTC

[info]britzkrieg
2005-08-10 02:34 pm UTC (link)
I am a software engineer with a high salary and no kids (ever). I'm definitely not playing the fiction-writing game for the money. In fact, right now I see it as a hobby and a luxury that my day job finances.

That being said, writing is tentatively part of my retirement plan. I would like to become successful enough in the next 30 years to retire early and still manage a comfortable lifestyle. We'll see how that goes...

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[info]madwriter
2005-08-10 03:04 pm UTC (link)
It's nice to see someone who thinks of success as a long-term (thirty-year) plan rather than some folks I know, who want it by next year / before age 30 / etc.

Me, I keep hearing the "It takes ten years to become a success at writing" and I've been at it (seriously, anyway) for 1 1/2 years, so I'll give myself another 8 1/2 years before I start grumbling and cursing the universe. :)

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(no subject) - [info]barbarienne, 2005-08-10 06:11 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]madwriter, 2005-08-12 07:34 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]affinity8, 2005-08-10 09:41 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]madwriter, 2005-08-12 07:35 pm UTC
my writerly output
[info]mekkavandexter
2005-08-10 03:10 pm UTC (link)
would probably rise dramatically if I got to solve mysteries in my off-time.

Just saying.

as someone who is in the midst of a vast two-province-wide argument re: Entitlement, and what has it done for me lately, what have YOU done for me lately, I can only say that the statement quoted does ring of the sour-est grapes and there is certainly _nothing wrong_ with going to conventions and pretending to be the thing You Most Want to be, because that's how we get there, by believing it's where we are (it's tricksy, this game we play) and where, to a certain extent, we might deserve to be (because we work hard, damnit!), even if we are only willing to say so in the dark after a few beer.

Living is subjective. The trick, I think, is to weigh the Living over the Job and decide which is more important. Most folks in this crazy capitalist world of ours Can Not make the Living they want through art. The whole nature of art exists to ensure artists don't end up on the high end of the hog (in north america) so the supplement is often not because it is impossible to make a _living_ but because it may be impossible to -make the living that buys me a hot car-, which is both a value system + entitlement thing and a personal choice. I know plenty of artists (various mediums) that live on 10K a year, because the cash-back aspect of their output is not all that important to them when compared to the notion of never having to ask someone if they want fries with that.

it's all priorities. I work so I can buy fancy soap. It's just true.

(I am certainly not suggesting the people that have jobs to make sure their kids get fed have entitlement issues, either. I speak from single-no-dependants-land, here.)

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: my writerly output
[info]palinade
2005-08-10 03:45 pm UTC (link)
Heh, I work so I can buy fancy papers and rubber stamps.

Oh, and books and more books, and bookshelves to house those books...

And food. I love me the FOOD. Especially premium ice cream. Mmmmm...

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: my writerly output - [info]buymeaclue, 2005-08-10 04:31 pm UTC
Re: my writerly output - [info]mekkavandexter, 2005-08-10 04:34 pm UTC
Re: my writerly output - [info]buymeaclue, 2005-08-10 04:40 pm UTC
Re: my writerly output - [info]mekkavandexter, 2005-08-10 05:12 pm UTC

[info]raecarson
2005-08-10 03:17 pm UTC (link)
Yes. *throws an "amen" in there too*

We live in an entitlement culture. It's no surprise that this would trickle into spec fic writing, especially given (as you noted) the rise of programs and communities whose purpose is fostering (flattering?) the spec fic writer.

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[info]iagor
2005-08-10 03:38 pm UTC (link)
Phooey. There go my dreams of cushy life as a writer. I've read enough golden age scifi to state that: 1) competion now is sharper; 2) writers now are better at what they do; 3) writing now is a multimedia field with ties to everything from computer games to cartoons. I am going to one day make a living off of my writing. And you can't stop me. (generic you)

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[info]palinade
2005-08-10 03:56 pm UTC (link)
Ever notice that these sorts of arguments pop up after an award has been given or after a large figure contract has been signed?

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[info]safewrite
2005-08-10 08:53 pm UTC (link)
Funny you should mention that. I had the same thought. Kinda reinforces the sour grapes angle, eh? Maybe?

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[info]matociquala
2005-08-10 04:05 pm UTC (link)
Well, I'm doing better financially writing than I was not-writing....

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[info]ospreys_view
2005-08-10 04:28 pm UTC (link)
Living is subjective. The trick, I think, is to weigh the Living over the Job and decide which is more important.

Weigh the Living over the Job? How about Balance the Living with the Job? I think the real trick is to enjoy what you are doing (whatever that is) and be content with what you've got.

I get so many of my ideas from the people I interact with at work and from the things I do at work that I can't imagine not doing what I do anymore. (Although there are those days...but that happens no matter what you do.) And there will be plenty of time to write full-time when I retire. I'd get so bored otherwise.

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[info]madwriter
2005-08-10 05:15 pm UTC (link)
Oops--that anonymous comment was mine. I just forgot to log in first.

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[info]madwriter
2005-08-10 05:38 pm UTC (link)
This time, at least, I remembered to log in first. (And I'll probably lay off at this point to quit filling up your mailbox. :) )

New(er) writers aren't the only ones lamenting not being able to make a living from writing. One of the last surviving Golden Age writers, Nelson Bond, lives about an hour from me and still laments the fact that he hasn't been able to make a living writing short stories for nearly sixty years now. (He blames TV.) He said in the 1930's and 1940's he could pay his rent with the check from a single story!

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[info]gfjames
2005-08-10 05:49 pm UTC (link)
Ask him how much "rent" was in those days. I bet his monthly rent money wouldn't match what a two-year subscription to Fantasy & Science Fiction cost these days.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]madwriter, 2005-08-10 06:11 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]barbarienne, 2005-08-10 06:15 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]madwriter, 2005-08-10 06:19 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]nihilistic_kid, 2005-08-10 09:52 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]madwriter, 2005-08-12 07:29 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]nihilistic_kid, 2005-08-12 09:14 pm UTC

[info]shawn_scarber
2005-08-10 05:41 pm UTC (link)
Personally, I just want to learn to write a kick-ass story and maybe get nominated for a Hugo. If they pay me a few cents a word for the story, that's just so much extra honey. If I actually make enough from short story sales to supplement my convention trips, well that's even better. If I can keep that up for the rest of my life I'll consider myself a success.

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[info]_starlady_
2005-08-11 02:21 pm UTC (link)
I'll agree with that. I get paid a comfortable amount in my day job--there's no way my writing income is going to compete with that (I have four sons and write slowly). If my few pro short story sales allow me the luxury and pleasure of speaking at cons, why should anyone complain? I'm dying to craft a story that would knock the socks off the world (wonderful visual, eh?). Until then, I'll just go along suffering my low output, but enjoying my status as a writer.

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[info]barbarienne
2005-08-10 07:39 pm UTC (link)
Well, I'm going to paint the bullseye on my ass and kind of agree with the original quote.

I say "kind of" because of course what other people have said here is true: one doesn't have to be earning a lot of money from writing, or be writing full-time, to be considered a successful writer.

But I have noticed many times that a certain portion of the con-going wannabe audience thinks they have "made it," when in fact they haven't.

One may argue that the definition of "made it" is variable for different people. Fine. Everyone has their own standards from which they will claim their happiness. I'm disinclined to disillusion happy people, which is why I don't talk about this very often.

But there's nothing variable in the relative evaluations of writers with regard to sales figures and income. A short-story writer who has a zillion "sales" to 4theLuv markets is not in the same class with a short-story writer who publishes at least semiregularly with pro markets. A self-published novelist is not in the same class as one who gets an advance and a whole company standing behind the production and distribution of the novel.

That's comparing the extremes. It's easy to compare.

The nitty part, and in some ways perhaps most relevant to the original post, is the inbetween. The SF community has always had small presses, ranging from basement-produced fanzines to some high-quality stuff. And the purpose of this range of the market is to make available the stuff that a significant number of people like, but which isn't popular enough to get a major publisher to sink muchodollars into it.

And what I see happening there--again, I note this is only my perception, YMMV--is a lot of writers who are publishing for other writers. That is, most of the readers are people who hope to be published in that market.

This strikes me as somewhat cannibalistic. I can't quite put my finger on why I feel that way, other than to say that I, personally, would prefer to be read by people who haven't the slightest inclination to write a book. It's all very well to be appreciated by other writers, but that kind of congratulation isn't as "real" to me as would be the appreciation of nonwriters.

But I think some writers--again, not all, but I've met them and they do exist--think that being appreciated by other writers puts them in the same category as popular writers ("popular" in its original sense, not Prom Queen sense). I refrain from saying one or the other category is better, since they have different qualifications.

But they are not the same. Some writers manage to be both. Some writers manage to be both simultaneously, which is a brilliant trick. But many writers seem to think the two forms of acclaim are transferrable, and that seems misguided to me. I don't think I will ever be a writer's writer. Neither my personal bent nor my strongest skills lean that way. I stand in amazement and envy of those writers, because they can do something I cannot.

I don't say that being a writer's writer is to be a poseur--that's the equivalent of calling a popular writer a hack. But just as there *are* hack writers, there are poseur writers. Do I think they're as prevalent as the originator of the quote seems to think? No. But they do exist.

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[info]ammitnox
2005-08-10 10:09 pm UTC (link)
Andre Norton didn't have much when she died earlier this year, I understand.

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Alpha
[info]_starlady_
2005-08-11 02:33 pm UTC (link)
>In the past forty years, we've gone from no structured programs for genre writers to Clarion, Clarion West, Clarion South, Odyssey, Viable Paradise, Uncle Orson's Boot Camp,

And Alpha, don't forget Alpha, the SF/F/H Workshop for Young Writers now in its fifth year.
http://alpha.spellcaster.org/
Its a ten-day residency workshop for teens 14 to 19, with past guests speakers such as Harry Turtledove, William Tenn, Tamora Pierce, Bruce Holland Rogers--and Timothy Zahn has accepted our invitation for next summer.

I'm a high maintenance woman requiring several hundred thousand dollars a year to keep me in a manner to which I have become accustomed. Does this mean my status as a pro writer must suffer because of the inequality of my writing income to our family income? I think not.

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writers have been identified as a market
[info]renakuzar
2005-08-11 04:04 pm UTC (link)
Charlie,

One issue driving the growth of structured programs for writers is that us wannabees have been identified as a market. I don't think it has anything to do with the growth of genre publishing or the growth of the numbers of folks being able to live off their writing.

I'm also not worried about it. Historically, most writers did not live off their writing. Why should that change? It is lovely when that happens, but in my opinion, it is not the ability to live off one's writing that marks one as a professional writer any more than the ability to live off one's painting that marks you as a professional artist. Uncounted professional actors live off their waiting skills. In this era of undervalued art, and over valued entertainment, this is what the market will dictate.

I'm just glad that the market economy has identified writers as a market and other wannabes are willing to be such a commodity as our cooperation in this way improves us all as artists and craftspeople.

It makes what we do produce better, even if most of us have to maintain our day jobs.

Walt

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: writers have been identified as a market
(Anonymous)
2005-08-12 01:28 am UTC (link)
Some really interesting and thought-provoking stuff here.

Writers with a sense of entitlement? Yes, I'm afraid that's too often true. I remember reading a whiny article several years back by a woman who couldn't get her book published. She actually had the audacity to imply that, because no one would take her book, her First Amendment rights were being denied. Now that's a sense of entitlement taken to a really absurd extreme.

Writers writing for an audience of writers? Yeah, I worry about that. Often before I submit to a small-press or on-line publication, I ask myself, "If they publish this story, what are the chances it will actually be read by anyone who reads it for the sheer pleasure of a good story, rather than to evaluate the editor's tastes to see if he or she could 'sell to that market'?"

My thoughts on why there are so many aspiring and would-be writers: I blame it on computers. Computers and word processing software and laser printers. And if you don't believe me, remember that Robert A. Heinlein pounded out the manuscript of STRANGER IN A STRANGE LAND on a manual typewriter, retyping it who knows how many times. I don't think nearly as many people would be writing stories and books and trying to get them published if they didn't have computers to make it so much easier. Yes, I know it's crazy to imply that writers these days are wimps because they rely on computers and Heinlein never needed one. That's not the point; we've got computers, so sure, let's use them. The point is that Heinlein did it without a computer, and I think an awful lot of people these days couldn't--quite possibly myself included.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

The writing life
(Anonymous)
2005-08-12 01:30 pm UTC (link)
I've thought about this a lot, as I am in a position right now, if I cut a few perks, to live off my writing. But, I don't want to. I've learned three things over the years. One--I am least likely to write when I have some financial doubt hanging over my head, and royalties, even from the big houses, do not necessarily come at exactly the time they're supposed to; nor can you assume your books will continue to sell well enough for you to keep getting contracts from publishers large enough to support you. Two--I like the social interaction of a day job, and feel that it feeds my creativity outside of that environment. I did have a couple of periods where I was able, for a period of a few months, to do nothing but write, and it was not a particularly productive time. Three--there's only so much *good* writing I can do in a day. I.e., the kind of rough draft, get-the-inspiration-down stuff. Maybe two to four hours. The rest--the editing, the rewriting--can be done anywhere at any time, so might as well be on my lunch break or after work, even if a little tired.

There's also something to be said about the idea that you become as efficient as you have to be. In other words, if you have all day to write something, it takes you all day to write it. If you have two hours, you may find you can still write it just as well in that time...if you have to.

And I've learned another thing--I don't ever want to be beholden to an outside source regarding *what* I write about. So I don't have any desire to be in a position where I'm so dependent on my fiction writing income that I lose a certain amount of leverage. You will not see me cranking out a novel to make sure I get money when I need it. I'm not saying doing so in not admirable and that it doesn't work for others who can create really good fiction that way. But it doesn't work for me and I don't want to be in that position. Ever.

On a kind of related topic--a professional writer can be many things, including someone who writes full-time. But that's not the only definition. If Gene Wolfe had a part-time job in addition to his fiction writing--and he did hold a job for quite awhile as I understand it--would he be considered an amateur?

JeffV

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[info]filomancer
2005-08-16 08:52 pm UTC (link)
[info]ccfinlay said: All the secrecy and anger that characterizes discussions of the writing profession reminds me of dysfunctional families.


Just out of curiosity, how common is it--in various people's experiences here--for workplace salaries in general to be an open topic of discussion? Where I've been, NOBODY talks about their own salary (though people would often speculate about others'). Seems to me there's a larger cultural thing going on with respect to income...

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(Anonymous)
2005-08-19 07:38 pm UTC (link)
Not only is it uncommon (in my experience) for people in the corporate world to discuss salaries, it's often forbidden. At one company where I worked some years ago, we were told during a meeting with HR that discussing salaries was grounds for dismissal.

That may seem harsh, but I can understand that policy; people who do discuss salaries rarely say things like, "Oh, you make more than I do? I didn't realize that. Well good for you!"

Open discussion of salaries in a system were pay is based on experience and education and performance can quickly lead to morale problems; some people--not many, but enough to make it easy for things to get ugly--have a hard time accepting that someone with more years on the job, a graduate degree, and a proven record of dependable, high-quality work actually DESERVES to be paid more than they do. So, it often really is best just to forbid discussion of salaries altogether.

(If I seem too adamant about this it's because I once worked with a guy who threatened a lawsuit--though thankfully he never followed through on it--because most of the people in his department made more money than he did, never mind that he had been with the company and doing that kind of work for less than a year, and nearly everyone else had at least three years' experience, some a good deal more. He really screwed up the morale in an otherwise solid department.)

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